5 Ways We Disagree With Dave Ramsey

It's time to tackle some of Dave Ramsey's most popular advice and ways Josh and Austin disagree! The guys point out where they think he might be missing the mark. Whether you're a die-hard Ramsey fan or just curious about different approaches to financial planning, the guys break down five key areas where they believe there's a better way. Tune in to challenge the status quo and rethink your financial game plan!

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Transcript

Welcome to the The Invested Dads Podcast, simplifying financial topics so that you can take action and make your financial situation better. Helping you to understand the current world of financial planning and investments, here are your hosts, Josh Robb and Austin Wilson. 

Austin Wilson: 

All right, hey, hey, hey, welcome back to The Invested Dads Podcast, a podcast where we take you on a journey to better your financial future. I'm Austin Wilson, Co-Portfolio Manager at Hixon Zuercher Capital Management. 

Josh Robb: 

I'm Josh Robb, Director of Wealth Management at Hixon Zuercher Capital Management. Austin, how can people help us with this podcast? 

Austin Wilson: 

Subscribe if you're not subscribed already. That way you get new episodes when they drop on Thursdays. And we'd love it if you'd leave us a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify or wherever you're listening so that other people may find us. So today, Josh. 

Josh Robb: 

Yes. 

Austin Wilson: 

You read it right in the title. We are going to be pointing out where Dave Ramsey is wrong. 

Josh Robb: 

Or at least where we think there may be a better path for most people, or we just disagree with him. 

[1:02] - A Caveat: Dave Ramsey Helps Millions of People  

Austin Wilson: 

So I mean, we should put the caveat out there that Dave has helped probably millions of people for many years. And generally speaking, if people were to do what he says, they'd be in a lot better situation than they would've been without him. 

Josh Robb: 

Yes. And his primary focus is on getting out of debt and being debt free, which we're both fans of. And so from that perspective, I encourage people to utilize his process from that standpoint. And so while we are going to point out some things that we maybe disagree with or have maybe some different views on or approaches, overall it's not that we're saying that he's completely wrong and avoid him and all that he does. In fact, I'm a huge fan of his debt relief program to get people out of debt. 

Austin Wilson: 

And I'm a fan of his platform in general. George Kamel and Rachel Cruze in the gang. They're great to listen to and have some funny... 

Josh Robb: 

He's got a great leadership podcast that he does. Yeah, really good stuff. So just we're pointing out a couple of things that if people listen to him or read, they may hear that we just want to point out our opinion on. 

Austin Wilson: 

But I will tell you that clickbait title really got you. 

Josh Robb: 

Oh, it gets good. 

Austin Wilson: 

Got you. All right, so we got five. That's a nice number. 

Josh Robb: 

A good number. 

[2:12] - Should All Extra Money Be Used for Debt Elimination?  

Austin Wilson: 

Not a bad one. So we have five different areas where we think we may think a little differently than Dave on a couple things. So I'm going to start out number one and then Josh and I are going to have a little back and forth. So Dave says that you should skip out on all investing, including your 401(k) match, including putting any money in to get your employer match, while you're paying off all non-mortgage debt. 

So Dave's philosophy around this is that all extra money, all extra money, should go towards eliminating debt to achieve financial freedom faster. Josh, where would we land on this? Because this is an area where I think we both say, ah, that's not what I would probably in most cases prefer. 

Josh Robb: 

Yes. And again, going back to is this bad advice? No, I'm not saying it's bad advice. 

Austin Wilson: 

It's not the worst advice. 

Josh Robb: 

I think our approach I think is a little bit better and we'll explain why. But his reasoning for this is when you are in debt and you owe somebody, you got to pay them back. And usually there's an interest rate involved. And when there's an interest rate involved, that means that you're paying more than what you borrowed. And so the goal is the faster you pay this off, the less you'll actually owe overall. 

And especially for people who are tuning in and doing this, a lot of times it's overwhelming. They're in this so much debt. They don't know what to do. So his answer is stop everything besides beans and rice eating. The bare minimum is what he's saying. And all that extra money, you just knock down debt after debt after debt until you're free, then you can go back to where you're at. 

Now, from our perspective, and we've talked about this in a couple other episodes, is the power of compounding is a factor in investing that you can never make up. Time you cannot add onto. And so the longer you wait to get started, the more it's going to take you to get to those goals. And so our approach to this is a moderation, a two goals at once type of approach. 

Austin Wilson: 

You do two things at once. Exactly. 

Josh Robb: 

Yes, you do need to free up cash flow to pay down that debt. And our advice probably is just get down to the minimum of what it takes to get the company match. In other words... 

Austin Wilson: 

The math is going to say you're never going to have a better return than you are on your match. 

Josh Robb: 

Yes, it's 100% return. 

Austin Wilson: 

Well, it depends on your situation. 

Josh Robb: 

Well, yeah, the match, but in general. 

Austin Wilson: 

Whatever you put in, maybe it's you put in four, they put in four. You put in six, they put in four. Whatever it is, do the maximum amount of your money it takes to get the maximum free money. And that is the minimum. 

Josh Robb: 

Yes. 

Austin Wilson: 

Always sign up for that. 

Josh Robb: 

Because it is part of your pay package that you give up when you don't put your contribution into 401(k). So in other words, and you've said this before, it's like you're sitting next to an employee beside you doing the same job, he's getting paid maybe 4% more than you because of that match. 

And so we say because of two things, one, missing out on that extra money as part of your compensation package, and then two, because of the power of compounding, those missed years are very hard to make up. So at least get that match in your 401(k) contribution while you're paying down that debt. 

Austin Wilson: 

I would say one clear example that comes up often in this part of the discussion is new graduates. So most people go to college. Most people come out of college with some student loans. Dave would say, you get your job right out of college, don't get your 401(k). Don't sign up for that 401(k) right away. 

Use every dollar that you can, including what you would've been putting in your 401(k) to get the match, to pay down those student loans. For example, we would say, in most cases, do both. Try and do both. Do enough to get the match and aggressively pay down those loans both. 

Josh Robb: 

And a side thing to this too, please don't take a withdrawal out of your retirement accounts to pay down debt. The tax and penalty alone is just hard to justify that. And then on top of that, again, the compounding and making that up is really, really, really hard. 

Austin Wilson: 

Ideally, never take unnecessary withdrawals. 

Josh Robb: 

Yes, and I understand there's emergency situations. The one I've seen at most that I can at least wrap my head around the reasoning is medical debt. So let's say your family had an emergency and there was just this big thing that you didn't plan on and you got to get that debt. I've seen it and I get where that came from. 

It wasn't like it was bad decisions that led to this debt. It wasn't like credit card debt that got you there, and it was just this overwhelming debt. And they were just struggling to get on a payment plan or figure the way out and that happened. So I get it. But in general, try to avoid it as much as possible. 

[6:46] - Is a 12% Average Annual Return in the Stock Market Realistic for the Average Joe?  

Austin Wilson: 

Absolutely. All right, so number two, Dave has some rather aggressive market return assumptions over time. So Dave would say, he does all the time- 

Josh Robb: 

He says this all the time. 

Austin Wilson: 

-that you should get and have historically gotten a 12% average annual return for stock market investments, which is historical levels of long-term performance, really aggressive ones that are unlikely in most experts' minds to persist going forward. 

Josh Robb: 

He's not lying. He is pulling factual data, but he's using the extremely long returns of the U.S. stock market. And so he'll say the market has returned 12% annually, which is true, but you're looking at 80-plus years of investment returns to get those averages. And most people don't have that timeframe to invest. 

Austin Wilson: 

But using a more recent timeframe, which is what we would typically look at, maybe like post-World War II or something like that, we would say something more like seven to 10% before inflation is factored in. So then when you take out inflation, so you're taking out another 3% potentially, you're getting more in the 6% to 8% normal real rate of return thinking over time, which doesn't support, by the way, an 8% withdrawal rate. 

Josh Robb: 

No. And we're going to get to that withdrawal rate here next when it comes to retirement. So market assumptions, a very diversified portfolio, which is what financial advisors really strive for, when you diversify, you do reduce some returns as a trade-off for a little bit of reduced volatility. 

So this 12% assumes you have no fixed income and it's all like high growth. That's something that it's not a very diversified portfolio. And so that's one thing. And then again, when you're using assumptions, if you're using them for planning, you don't want to go to the high end. You want to leave a cushion there for the what if I don't get the optimal or most likely return. 

Austin Wilson: 

Well, and in this assumption, I think it also fails to factor in things like sequence of returns, which is very important. 

Josh Robb: 

And that's when we get to withdrawal rate, which is the next one of our concerns with him. That's where you most likely are going to hit the biggest issue. So is Dave lying when he says 12%? No, it's factual. Historically, it's just such a long timeframe, 100 years. It's just not realistic that someone will stick with it long enough to see those returns annualized over that period of time. 

Austin Wilson: 

And another factor in that is that if you look back a hundred and some years or whatever when you're looking at these returns, the U.S. was an emerging market almost at that point 100 years ago. It was not the largest economy in the world and demographics were growing like crazy, and it was just a boom. Go through a couple of world wars. 

We were the last man standing and we were the place to be. So those returns that far back look really, really good because of all the demographic tailwinds post-World War II especially. And then if you look to now, we don't have the demographic growth. We're not going to have the economic growth that we've had. 

Josh Robb: 

Yeah, our GDP growth is not anywhere near what it was before. 

Austin Wilson: 

We're not an emerging market. We're not going to grow that fast. So the stock market really reflects that growth as well, which is not likely to continue going forward. 

Josh Robb: 

So his rate of return for the market is 12%. And then on top of that, when asked, well, how much can I take out of my portfolio when I'm retired, his response was 8%. And his reasoning, he backed into it, he said, "Well, if you're getting a 12% return, you're going to need some... Leave some on there for inflation so that your money grows to keep up with inflation." So he moved it down. So he used about a 4% inflation number and said you could take 8% out per year. 

[10:32] - Is Dave Ramsey Right with His Withdrawal Rate Assumptions?  

Austin Wilson: 

So that brings us to the third point that have some disagreements with Dave Ramsey is his withdrawal rate assumptions. So yes, he's saying market's going to give you 12, you can withdraw eight, and you're still left with four to be net of inflation. 

Josh Robb: 

Have your portfolio grow for inflation. 

Austin Wilson: 

So the reality of returns that we just talked about is more like six to 8% potentially, potentially after inflation. Well, you can't really be pulling out 8% after inflation. You're earning 8%. So most financial advisors hone in on that 4%-ish. Now, you can explain in a moment some flexibility around that, but that 4%-ish leaves you that same two to 4% for inflation on top of what you're withdrawing to get your actual return. So Josh, talk about how we look at withdrawal rates. 

Josh Robb: 

Yes, I'll explain that, and then I'll also talk about why sequence of returns really matters in this situation and why you can't assume that your average return will help you with the sequence of return. All right, so we look at it, the industry has this 4% rule. It's been here for quite a while, and it's back tested data on this sustainable withdrawal for a 30-year retirement, saying if somebody retires, how much can they take out and have a high probability of not running out of money? 

And the data shows 4%. We know that depending on how you approach your withdrawals, how much flexibility you have, let's say there's a downturn in the market, can you reduce your spending? If there's some flexibility built in, it allows you to withdraw around 5%, even up to five and a half. But four to 5% is kind of that range where most advisors would say with someone watching it and the built-in ability to make some adjustments as needed, that four to 5% is a sustainable withdrawal for a full retirement. 

Now, sequence of returns matters. So for instance, if you were to retire right before 2008-2009 and there was a large downturn and it extended out to about 2013 for the market to recover, sequence matters. If you start your retirement with down years while you're pulling money out, that's a detrimental impact to your success. Whereas if you would've started two years earlier, in 2025-2026, your returns would look totally different and your success would be a lot higher. 

And so sequence matters. And if you're withdrawing a high rate like that, 8%, you are relying on getting that average. And if an average is the accumulation of all those years divided by how many years there are, that's how average works, averages aren't great. Because if you have them all stacked up front bad, your average is not going to work out when it comes to withdrawals. Your average is not going to help you at all. And so sequence matters. 

And so you actually have to be a little more conservative in withdrawal rates as a result of not wanting to front load the risk on what if the market, because you have no control of the market. And once you retire, I mean, you can always go back to work, but you're taking a risk that's hard to undo. And so you need to be a little more conservative on the front end. 

Austin Wilson: 

I saw a statistic that was like, do you know how many years... So the stock market on average, we would say something like, an 8% return is an average return. Do you know how many years the stock market averages before it gets about an 8% return? Almost never. 

Josh Robb: 

It's up or down. 

Austin Wilson: 

It's either up 20 or it's down 10, and over time it averages 8%, but you're never... Not never, but you're almost unlikely to get the average return. We would say both sides, his market assumptions and withdrawal rates, are a bit aggressive for what we would typically recommend. But we got two more and we're going to come back after Josh gives us a dad joke of the week. 

[14:07] - Dad Joke of the Week  

Josh Robb: 

All right. Why did the toilet go to the doctor? 

Austin Wilson: 

I have no idea. 

Josh Robb: 

Because it felt flushed. 

Austin Wilson: 

It felt flushed. I thought you were going to say something about running. 

Josh Robb: 

No, no. 

Austin Wilson: 

But Josh, I'm going to give you a bonus dad joke. 

Josh Robb: 

Bonus. 

Austin Wilson: 

I got one for you. 

Josh Robb: 

I want it. 

Austin Wilson: 

This is off the cuff. I was not prepared for this. 

Josh Robb: 

Okay. 

Austin Wilson: 

This is a funny joke though. 

Josh Robb: 

I'm ready. I will not drink water while you tell it to. 

Austin Wilson: 

Why isn't a koala bear actually considered a bear? 

Josh Robb: 

Because it doesn't have the qualifications. 

Austin Wilson: 

That's exactly it. How did you know that? 

Josh Robb: 

It just makes sense. 

Austin Wilson: 

I thought that was so funny. 

Josh Robb: 

That's a good one. 

Austin Wilson: 

I thought that was so funny. 

Josh Robb: 

So true story. 

Austin Wilson: 

True story. 

Josh Robb: 

Side note. 

Austin Wilson: 

Koala bear. 

Josh Robb: 

Well, bear. We were at a zoo, and the zoo in particular we were at had these viewing portals where you could watch the bears. It was I'm going to say a peninsula into the cage area. So you can go in and they could be around you, which is a really cool experience. And they had these little holes you could look through. And I was joking because when you walked up, you couldn't see the glass. 

It was clear, which is great to view from. It was like, "Can the bears get through there," was the question that my kids were wondering, and I said, "Well, if they reach out to grab you, you can grab their arm." And the kids were like, "What are you talking about?" I said, "Yeah, this is America. We have the right to bear arms." And they just stared at me. 

Austin Wilson: 

Yeah. 

Josh Robb: 

They didn't quite get it. 

Austin Wilson: 

That's so funny. 

Josh Robb: 

The right to bear arms. 

Austin Wilson: 

So we recently renewed our Toledo Zoo membership because they got the cross bridge things open again. That's great. So we got that back. We were going to Columbus for a year. We're back to Toledo. 

Josh Robb: 

Toledo is great. 

Austin Wilson: 

We prefer Toledo because it's small enough, you can do the whole thing. 

Josh Robb: 

Splash pad. 

Austin Wilson: 

Super walkable. It's great. So they have bears. Our youngest Whitley loves bears so much. And so anyway, then this brown bear section, they have this tunnel that you can... Now they have a space in the middle with... It's not glass. It's fencing kind of metal. Really tough, I'm sure, but there's probably a couple feet in the middle where nothing can cross either way. But a bear could be sitting in the tunnel and your kid could go in the tunnel and be a couple feet away from a bear. 

Josh Robb: 

Isn't that crazy? 

Austin Wilson: 

It sounds cool. There was no bear there when we were there. 

Josh Robb: 

It was on the other side. Yes. 

[16:32] - Is All Credit Card Use Bad?  

Austin Wilson: 

All right, two more. Dave, Dave, Dave, Dave, classic Dave. Dave's predictable. Dave frequently says he hates the use, even what we would say responsible use, of credit cards. All credit cards are bad. Chop them up and throw them in the trash. 

Josh Robb: 

Yep. He is not a fan. 

Austin Wilson: 

So he advocates for avoiding all forms of debt, including credit cards and even mortgages with low interest rates if you can. Strongly encouraging cash only lifestyle. So where would we land on this, Josh? 

Josh Robb: 

So again, his primary audience and who he's really targeting are the people who struggle with maintaining a healthy relationship with spending. And so his answer is because credit cards are delaying payment and you could spend more than you actually have over that period of time, don't use them at all. 

Austin Wilson: 

So I will say before we go any further, this does work for people who want to spend money like crazy. This actually works. 

Josh Robb: 

Yes. 

Austin Wilson: 

Because it forces you to have the money in your hand or in your account to buy anything. The majority of people aren't that end of the spectrum. There may be somewhere in the middle and that's where you're going to pick. 

Josh Robb: 

Yes. So our response is for people who have a good budget and have the ability to stick to that budget consistently, there's some spending here or there maybe they have to watch, but at the end of the month they have the money to pay the credit card, the advantages of the credit card outweigh some of those risks for the people who are responsible again. So what are some of the advantages? 

One is just that is that it's delayed payments. And so you could use your credit card. And if you get paid twice a month, it just moves out your transactions to make it a lot easier. Two, there's a lot of protections built into that. So if there's fraud, if someone spends something in your name, if you have a debit card, that money's out of your account and maybe you can get it back, but it'll be a little while. 

Whereas the credit card, you tell them that wasn't it and they'll take it off your charge. There's also for hotels, some places you have to have or they want a credit card on file. 

Austin Wilson: 

Rental cars. 

Josh Robb: 

Rental cars. If they don't, they put a big hold on your account and so your account is down $250 or more just so that they hold it just in case of incidentals. And then the last one being is points or whatever. You can get something for being a good user of the card. And so again, I would not say get a credit card just for the points. But if you have a credit card, find one that gives you a benefit, whether it's cash back or whatever, that allows you to take advantage of that. And so overall, again, it just is a convenience factor. That's really what it is. 

Austin Wilson: 

So my wife and I over the years have been on both sides of the spectrum. We've done everything from only using cash in a debit card where we did the Ramsey kind of thinking to having a few different cards to maximize all your different cash back rewards or whatever and all different categories to now something in the middle where we just pretty much put everything on one card. And I like my cash back, but I pay it off every single month. But Dave would say that, and he may have some evidence behind this, that people spend more money when they're using a plastic card than they do... 

Josh Robb: 

It's harder to let go of cash. That is true. Psychologically, that is true. 

Austin Wilson: 

That's one of his shticks I guess around this. But I would say if you're a responsible spender who knows where your money is going and that you're spending less than you're bringing in, the vehicle in which you use to get there is less... 

Josh Robb: 

Doesn't matter. 

Austin Wilson: 

You want to be the person that the credit card company doesn't make money on. You want to be the person who you don't pay... 

Josh Robb: 

They make money on you on the transactions because the network pays, but not from you. Not from you. 

Austin Wilson: 

You pay no extra money, but you get the rewards. You're actually taking advantage of that offer where most people are going to have to pay some interest and they're keeping the credit card companies alive essentially. So that's where we would land on that. I understand where he's coming from, but I truly think that... I mean, if you leave everything onto a card with just a decent amount of cash back, you can get 1,000, $2,000 a year cash back. 

[20:48] - Should You or Should You Not Take Out More Than a 15-Year Mortgage?  

Austin Wilson: 

That's not insignificant. So, something to think about. All right, last but not least, mortgages. This is where if you watch some of the Ramsey Clans videos online or whatever, the snips, they get shredded to pieces because a lot of people feel that this advice is really out of touch with the reality of think about where we are in a housing market. 

Josh Robb: 

And it's not that it's wrong, it just seems a little bit out of touch. 

Austin Wilson: 

So, Dave would say, do not take out more than a 15-year mortgage. Make it a 15-year fixed rate mortgage. Wait until you can put 20% down and make sure that your mortgage payment is no more than 25% of your take-home pay. And then I would argue obviously also for paying it down early once your other debt is gone. This seems like a bit of a challenge in most areas of the United States specifically today. 

Because first of all, the housing market has just gone crazy. Mortgage rates are high, which means mortgage payments, if you combine those two, are really high. So to find a house even on a 30 year to be less than a quarter of your take-home pay is really hard, much less a 15. So, people really think this is a bit out of touch. I think it's ideal really. 

Josh Robb: 

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with this. 

Austin Wilson: 

I think this is great advice if you can swing it. Take a 15-year fixed rate mortgage, no more than 25% of your take-home pay, and you'll be better off than most people. 

Josh Robb: 

Yes. 

Austin Wilson: 

I don't necessarily think in most cases it's practical now. 

Josh Robb: 

Right. And I would say... 

Austin Wilson: 

Especially for your first home. 

Josh Robb: 

Of all those things, the amount of your take-home pay that this mortgage is going to use up is the most important of those. You have to go from a 15 to 30 year. Those are the ones that reduces your payment. But you don't want to overspend, because what you don't want to have is you're too reliant on your income to cover this large payment. And if there's a change in your employment, it's a very hard thing for you to maintain that home. 

Austin Wilson: 

And be house poor. You can be house poor. 

Josh Robb: 

House poor, yeah, because you just don't have anything to do anything else with. That's to me the biggest thing is that 25%, I've seen it as high as 30 or 35. It depends on people and what they're calculating, but that's the thing I would most likely watch. I would be more apt to say, hey, go out 30 years. Lower that payment down so that it doesn't crash your budget on ongoing basis. 

Austin Wilson: 

You can always refinance. 

Josh Robb: 

Yes. 

Austin Wilson: 

You could refinance to a lower rate on the same 30. 

Josh Robb: 

Or you could get a 30 to pay extra to shorten it. 

Austin Wilson: 

Or you could refinance to a 15 in the future. It gives you a lot of flexibility there. I would also say cautioning against things like ARMs is also generally pretty good advice. 

Josh Robb: 

ARM is adjustable-rate mortgage and that just means fixed rate says you're paying 8% every month. It's the same interest rate forever for the length of your loan. An adjustable rate mortgage, an ARM, says usually it's like for the first handful of months or years it's set, and then there's a readjustment at some point for a new interest rate. And so those are the more dangerous ones in that if interest rates go up, your payment goes up. And if you're not ready to absorb that higher payment, you're in trouble. 

Austin Wilson: 

I would say that one thing that he says that I recently heard him say that I agree with in the mortgage area is that owning a home should be most people's goal for their living situations if they're going to be in a place for a while. 

Josh Robb: 

If you're going to be in the place for a while. 

Austin Wilson: 

And with a fixed rate mortgage. And one of the reasons for that is when you buy that house and you have that fixed rate mortgage, your payment dollars is fixed for the life of the loan. So if you sign a 15 or a 30-year mortgage that's at a fixed rate, your same dollar payment is for 15 or 30 years. So you're locking in zero inflation on that component of your housing. Now, your property taxes, your insurance, they're going to go up. 

Josh Robb: 

Utilities. All that stuff. 

Austin Wilson: 

That's pretty small in comparison to your payment and your payment will not go up. Another thing that he cautions against that I'm a very big fan of is if you do put less than 20% down on your mortgage, you pay what's called PMI or private mortgage insurance. Really it's not insurance for you. 

Josh Robb: 

Nope. 

Austin Wilson: 

It's insurance for the lender that you're going to default before you have enough equity in the home for them to get anything out of it. 

Josh Robb: 

Yep. 

Austin Wilson: 

That is money down the drain for you. 

Josh Robb: 

Because it doesn't go away. 

Austin Wilson: 

It goes away when you hit 20%, if you catch it in time. 

Josh Robb: 

Yes. 

Austin Wilson: 

Not always even automatically. 

Josh Robb: 

Yes. 

Austin Wilson: 

So the 20% down I think is ideal if you can do it. But again, in most areas, that's really hard to get, especially for some. 

[25:25] - Final Thoughts on Dave Ramsey & His Philosophies  

Josh Robb: 

All right, so there's five things again that we just have some other opinions, disagreements on with Dave Ramsey. Again, we think he has a great program when it comes to getting out of debt. He has some great leadership advice and podcasts out there, but those are just some things that we thought we would highlight as we hear and see them on social media and things like that. So any other thoughts as we wrap it up? 

Austin Wilson: 

Dave, George, Rachel, if you're listening to this episode and you want to join our podcast, we'd love to have you on. We'll come down to Nashville. But no, I totally agree. I think that he's done a lot for people. He's done a lot for the industry. We don't see eye to eye on 100% of things completely. But again, I think for most people they would be better off following his plan than no plan at all. 

And we are thankful for that in general. So yeah, that's where we are. Until next episode, thank you for listening. If you know someone who's an avid Dave Ramsey fan, you want to poke them a little bit, send in this episode. But if you have any ideas for any other podcast episodes, email us at hello@hzcapital.com, even hello@theinvesteddads.com. Either one, we'll get it. 

Josh Robb: 

Either way. 

Austin Wilson: 

It's all good. And until next episode, have a good one. 

Josh Robb: 

All right, talk to you later. 

Austin Wilson: 

Bye. 

Thank you for listening to The Invested Dads Podcast. This episode has ended, but your journey towards a better financial future doesn't have to. Head over to TheInvestedDads.com to access all the links and resources mentioned in today's show. If you enjoyed this episode and we had a positive impact on your life, leave us a review. Click subscribe and don't miss the next episode. 

Josh Robb and Austin Wilson work for Hixon Zuercher Capital Management. All opinions expressed by Josh, Austin, or any podcast guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Hixon Zuercher Capital Management. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon for investment decisions. Clients of Hixon Zuercher Capital Management may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast. 

There is no guarantee that the statements, opinions, or forecasts provided herein will prove to be correct. Past performance may not be indicative of future results. Indices are not available for direct investment. Any investor who attempts to mimic the performance of an index would incur fees and expenses which would reduce returns. Securities investing involves risk, including the potential for loss of principal. There is no assurance that any investment plan or strategy will be successful.